A couple of questions on PSU, Graphics, MoBo and more.

[der Kopf]

Hi. I'm very new to building pcs (I'm even fairly new to pcs - I've been a lifelong mac user and have never owned a PC-), but I've decided I want to add a decent PC to my home network, and do own a college degree in CS. I've been looking around a few hours now, and I've found some nice stuff that might prove to be a decent enough setup.

My main concern was for it to be cheap, but I've found out that it won't be possible for me to be cheap and regret it afterwards.

I've come up with the following, and I'll put in the questions where they belong:

* Case: some standard ATX box with a 400 Watt supply (does that make a difference? Could somebody shed some light on what I should look for in a PSU?).
35€ (I live in Belgium).

- MoBo: I originally had decided on the ASUS A7V8X-X, but it appears the retailer I saw it at no longer has them. So I might bite the bullet and go for the _ _ _ ABIT NF7 (25€ extra at 100€). I don't really care for S-ATA (and therefore not for the ABIT NF7-S), although I'm not sure I really shouldn't. Anyway. I'm thinking that 100€ is a bit more than I really want to spend. So another possibility would be the ASROCK K7S8X S462 (for 80€) or the ASROCK K7VT2 (for 55€). Most important differences: the S8X has 5.1CH audio (versus 2CH), 8xAGP (versus 4x) and supports 333 MHz FSB speed (versus 266). Which brings me to, probably, the most important question: which processor should I go for...

* CPU: Cheap apparently equals AMD. After looking, I'm doubting between the Athlon XP 2400+ or the 2600+. The first runs on a 266 MHz bus, the second on a 333 MHz bus. The price (for the boxed version) is 106€ versus 124€. My question, obviously: is the 2600+ worth it (and does it require the more expensive board that supports a 333 MHz FSB?)? Its worth, of course, being the performance gain it'd give me over the 2400 with its slower bus and lower clockrate. What are your opinions and what are the facts?

*Video card: another difficult topic. Broad gamma of choices, and I really haven't followed the ATI vs. NVidia debate as of late, so I'm stuck with this long shortlist:
ATI Radeon 7000 64Bit DDR 64 MB TV Out DVI..............................45,00€
ATI Radeon 7500 AGP DDR 128 MB TV Out DVI...............................65,00€
ATI Radeon 9200 - 128 MB DDR - AGP 8x - DVI - TV out...................74,00€
ATI Radeon 9200 - 128 MB DDR - AGP 8x - DVI - Video In / Video Out.....95,00€
GeForce 4 MX 440 64 MB + TV out Chaintech...............................55,00€
GeForce 4 MX 440 64 MB DDR TV-out Pixelview.............................59,00€
GeForce 4 MX 440 SE 128MB............................................. ..69,00€
GeForce 4 MX 440 SE 64 MB DDR AGP8x TV out MSI MS8890...................57,00€
GeForce 4 MX 440 SE 64 MB DDR TV out....................................49,00€
GeForce FX 5200 Asus V9520 Magic DDR 128 MB TV out......................89,00€
GeForce FX 5200-8X 128 MB DDR TV-out Pixelview..........................82,00€

(one question: that Video IN on the Radeon 9200, is that usable for e.g. digitizing VHS tapes?).

*RAM: I'm going for one 256 MB stick of DDR, whichever works best for the MOBO I end up with.

* HD & such: a pity one needs a HD! I just bought a 320 GB Firewire HD, and I obviously am not exactly gasping for space. So I want something as cheap as possible (preferably >30€ for ?20GB), but that will prove to be hard to find. EBay hardly is of help either. I'm not gonna have a floppy drive (Apple-serf as I am) just yet, and I'm still in doubt as to the optical drive.

I'm hoping you will all reply en masse.

[Wobbel]

First of all, Welcome to PCTT, der kopf.

That's an impressive list you gathered there, but i think the first thing you must ask yourself (or tell us) is :"what am i going to use this pc for".
Is it for gaming, music, mp3, video, rendering graphics, etc, and wich os are you going to use (XP, linux, etc.).
If you know what it's going to be used for, then you can decide what you need for that specific task, and look for the best quality/price on those components.
And since our members do all sorts of things with a pc, i think you can get a good answer, if you provide us with that info

[igalan]

Originally posted by der Kopf
* Case: some standard ATX box with a 400 Watt supply (does that make a difference? Could somebody shed some light on what I should look for in a PSU?).
35€ (I live in Belgium).

If you're looking not to spend too much, 400 W should be enough, even 300W is enough if the PSU is a good one (usually this is not the case, thus higher wattage is needed.) Look for a case that can have additional fans on the back and with enough room to place the hardware you want to add.

ABIT NF7 (25€ extra at 100€). I don't really care for S-ATA (and therefore not for the ABIT NF7-S), [...]. Anyway. I'm thinking that 100€ is a bit more than I really want to spend. So another possibility would be the ASROCK K7S8X S462 (for 80€) or the ASROCK K7VT2 (for 55€). Most important differences: the S8X has 5.1CH audio (versus 2CH), 8xAGP (versus 4x) and supports 333 MHz FSB speed (versus 266).

Get the mobo with 8xAGP and 333 MHz FSB. I don't have experience with SiS chipsets, so I don't know if it's good or not. For myself I would get a Asus A7N8X (not Deluxe if you don't need the additional features -Sata, Firewire, dual LAN-.)

* CPU: Cheap apparently equals AMD. After looking, I'm doubting between the Athlon XP 2400+ or the 2600+. The first runs on a 266 MHz bus, the second on a 333 MHz bus. The price (for the boxed version) is 106€ versus 124€.

I would get the XP2600, I think it's worth the extra 18€.

ATI Radeon 7000 64Bit DDR 64 MB TV Out DVI
ATI Radeon 7500 AGP DDR 128 MB TV Out DVI....65,00€
ATI Radeon 9200 - 128 MB DDR - AGP 8x - DVI - TV out....74,00€
ATI Radeon 9200 - 128 MB DDR - AGP 8x - DVI - Video In / Video Out.....95,00€
GeForce 4 MX 440 64 MB + TV out Chaintech.....55,00€
GeForce 4 MX 440 64 MB DDR TV-out Pixelview....59,00€
GeForce 4 MX 440 SE 128MB...69,00€
GeForce 4 MX 440 SE 64 MB DDR AGP8x TV out MSI MS8890....57,00€
GeForce 4 MX 440 SE 64 MB DDR TV out.....49,00€
GeForce FX 5200 Asus V9520 Magic DDR 128 MB TV out.....89,00€
GeForce FX 5200-8X 128 MB DDR TV-out Pixelview.............82,00€

From all of the above I would get the Asus V9520. But don't expect the best performance in newer games. If you want some more performace, consider a FX5600 or better FX5600 Ultra.

(one question: that Video IN on the Radeon 9200, is that usable for e.g. digitizing VHS tapes?).

Yes, it is. You just have to plug the VCR to the videocard, the audio to the audio in, and get some program to capture (usually bundled with the videocard.)

* HD & such: a pity one needs a HD! I just bought a 320 GB Firewire HD, and I obviously am not exactly gasping for space. So I want something as cheap as possible (preferably >30€ for ?20GB), but that will prove to be hard to find. EBay hardly is of help either. I'm not gonna have a floppy drive (Apple-serf as I am) just yet, and I'm still in doubt as to the optical drive.

With a 40GB drive you should have more than enough, and this is currently the smaller you can get... Get a DVD-ROM, because you'll need to install the OS and programs!

About the OS, I would choose Windows XP Home. Forget Windows ME or 98 SE. Windows 2000 Professional is another option, but I think XP is better for newer computers.

[Pasty901]

Yes that is an impressive list, u seem to have done ur homework! Wobbel is right though, u need to decide what u wull b using the pc for before u go into detail on what parts to get

But ill try and answer on a general scale...

PSU - the 400W should well cope with the hardware you intend to put in the machine, for example my 350 runs 2 optical drives, a hdd, a rehobus, a lcd screen and the list goes on. Therefore if you are not intending to power too many things you may be able to save and getter a smaller psu. But go for a well known make such as emmermax as the psu is an integral part of ur computer

As for Mobo im not too up on those atm but from what you say i would veir toward the S8X as it seems to hav features on it which will last you for a good few years to come.

CPU Athlons definatley if you are going to play sum games and personally id go with OEM rarther than boxed but thats a personal preference i dont like paying for all the fluff you get in the box, all i am interested in is the chip lol.

Video card well if you will b playin games the MMX isnt what i would go for, mayb look into the Tis, my 4200Ti suits me very well

Your RAM id personally put 512 in there there is a big difference between the two believe it or not. And the place to buy www.crucial.com

HD yer id go for the smallest you can find, ebuyer.com do 30GB drives which i believe are quite gud tho i dont know if they will deliver to Belgium but its worth a look and i would buy an optical drive just on the off chance, and they arnt too expensive now, a 52x is only around £20-25 here you never know wen they will come in handy

[iAvalance]

Integrating OSX and Windows machines in a network has never been easier... With that in mind you can share a lot of resources like diskspace, internet connection and printers, but Windows doesn't install from a mounted (cdrom) device, it needs a physical one. This brings you to the need to have a CDROM player in the thing, unless you are going to run Linux of course. Linux installs fine from an NFS, FTP, SMB or HTTP mount from one of your OSX boxes.

[der Kopf]

Well, I will be putting in an optical drive, that's a given, it's just that I haven't made up my mind as to cdrom/dvdrom or cdrw or maybe cdrw/dvdrom combo. I am planning to use the optical drive for some Exact Audio Copy ripping in secure mode, for example (or maybe CDParanoia ripping under Linux, anyway, the thought's the same).

As to the question of what I plan on doing: workhorsing the machine (encoding DVD-rips, e.g.), probably some newsreading (downloading/uploading binaries) to unload my mac, serving (web) content on my LAN and beyond (I'll have to see about that), audio ripping (as I mentioned), and I've no doubt I'll eventually want to play some games on the machine (although I'm hardly into that right now, I do look forward to being able to play GTA Vice City without the need of a Playstation 2), and experiment a lot with Windows and Linux (I plan to have my machine dual boot).

So, I could use some extra oomph (lord knows I've been underprivileged with this iBook I have here), but it hardly needs to be bleeding edge. Nothing critical will be demanded from the machine. I've decided, for what it's worth, that I'm going for the 2600+, and that I will get a motherboard with AGP 8x and 333FSB.

As for now, I have a specific question wrt motherboards. I read that for AMD, the nforce2 chipset is the (only) way to go. That would mean that, e.g. the Asus A7N8X-X (at 94€) would be a better deal than the Asus A7V8X-X (at 74€, which sports the VIA KT400(?) chipset). What are the going opinions (remember that I'm something of a PC n00b)?

[igalan]

Originally posted by der Kopf
cdrom/dvdrom or cdrw or maybe cdrw/dvdrom combo. I am planning to use the optical drive for some Exact Audio Copy ripping in secure mode, for example

If you already have a CD-RW in your Mac, there's little need to spend more money in another one. You can get a DVD-ROM that can rip fast like LiteOn (but I can't tell you the models that are better for ripping.) I know that some CD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs limit the max rip speed, so this is something to consider.

As for now, I have a specific question wrt motherboards. I read that for AMD, the nforce2 chipset is the (only) way to go. That would mean that, e.g. the Asus A7N8X-X (at 94€) would be a better deal than the Asus A7V8X-X (at 74€, which sports the VIA KT400(?) chipset). What are the going opinions (remember that I'm something of a PC n00b)?

I prefer nForce2 chipset over VIA KT400. It has some nice features like dual channel memory, 200 MHz FSB (effective 400 MHz.) Also if nVidia finally releases a working IDE driver for the MCP southbridge, this chipset is supposed to use much less CPU for IDE transfers (so it's also faster); however previous releases were plagued with serious bugs (a bug in a video driver can corrupt image or hang the computer, but a bug in the ide driver can also destroy data.) Meanwhile you'll use default MS driver that doesn't have any problem, but it doesn't benefit from improved performance either (so until this driver is released the only advantage for you would be dual channel memory if you put two identical DIMMs.)

But the A7V9X-X also looks good as an entry level motherboard.

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by igalan
I prefer nForce2 chipset over VIA KT400. It has some nice features like dual channel memory, 200 MHz FSB (effective 400 MHz.) Also if nVidia finally releases a working IDE driver for the MCP southbridge, this chipset is supposed to use much less CPU for IDE transfers (so it's also faster); however previous releases were plagued with serious bugs.

Sounds a bit strange to me: it is supposed to be better, but it's riddled with bugs? I hear you though. Is there a chance that the new driver will be released in the near future, or is there a greater chance that it will prove to be absolute vaporware?

[igalan]

Originally posted by der Kopf
Sounds a bit strange to me: it is supposed to be better, but it's riddled with bugs? I hear you though. Is there a chance that the new driver will be released in the near future, or is there a greater chance that it will prove to be absolute vaporware?

Currently users of nForce2 boards use the default Windows XP IDE driver. It works well and without problems. But nVidia is working on a improved IDE driver similar to Intel accelerator, that can improve IDE transfers and CPU use. So if you stick to current nVidia drivers, you shouldn't have any problem.

The IDE driver was supposed to be released "shortly" after the new 2.45 drivers. That was at the beginnig of August. The driver has not been released yet and no one knows for sure when it will be released. All we know is that it's being tested more thoroughly than previous releases. BTW, nVidia pulled some driver version (the Unified Driver for nForce 2 mobos) to remove the IDE driver until they fixed it.

[der Kopf]

Originally posted by igalan
Currently users of nForce2 boards use the default Windows XP IDE driver.

Okay. I have another question then: how about if I use other OSes (I'm planning on using Windows 2003 Server, or 2000 Server and Linux)?

[igalan]

Originally posted by der Kopf
Okay. I have another question then: how about if I use other OSes (I'm planning on using Windows 2003 Server, or 2000 Server and Linux)?

The default driver will work just fine for all os (Windows 95, 98, 2000 and XP). There will be a IDE driver for Windows 2000 Professional and XP, I don't know if it will work on 2000 Server and probably not in Windows 2003 Server.

[iAvalance]

Win2000 Server is equal to Win2000Pro with regards to drivers, in my experiences. 'Server' only means it has another default optimization settings and is equipped with other/extra software like IIS, SMTP, DHCP, DNS and such.

NVidia has Linux and Free BSD support (drivers) for their videocards.

[Pasty901]

I hav to agree i do like my Nforce 2 chipset, its workin out a lot better for me than my old VIA 1. I was a bit sceptical too as i bought my mobo just on the release of the nf2 and with all the problems nf1 had i was needless to say a little wary but my fears havnt been confirmed and so far *crosses fingers* no problems and im very impressed wiv it

[der Kopf]

I have another question: what's the deal with the 2500+ and the 2600+ AMD Athlon CPUs? The 2500+ has a name (Barton) that some of the newer models also have. The 2600+ doesn't. On most sites I've looked, they cost the exact same price. How is this possible? I seem to be bamboozled by the fact that 2600 is more than 2500, but maybe that's not right?

[RipperRoo]

Originally posted by der Kopf
I have another question: what's the deal with the 2500+ and the 2600+ AMD Athlon CPUs? The 2500+ has a name (Barton) that some of the newer models also have. The 2600+ doesn't. On most sites I've looked, they cost the exact same price. How is this possible? I seem to be bamboozled by the fact that 2600 is more than 2500, but maybe that's not right?

heres the difference

AMD Athlon "Barton" XP2500+ features a total 640KB of full-speed cache memory - 128K L1 cache (64K instruction and 64K data) and 512K of L2 cache

the xp 2600 has a smaller onboard L2 cache memory, instead of a 512k L2 cache, it has 256K, so doesnt perform as well as the XP2500+ Barton, even tho its a little faster.